You conveniently completely fail to mention that Israel worked very closely with the apartheid government in developing arms, (including nuclear weapons) some which were used to suppress liberation movements in sub-Saharan Africa and against the black majority in South Africa. You also fail to mention the very close historical ties between the African National Congress and the Palestine Liberation Organisation instead focusing on Tehran where a pre-conference meeting took place whereas both the ANC and the PLO emerged as liberation movements fighting against oppressive regimes. But I think Israelis struggle to see that as it does fit the promised land narrative
Thank you, Nicholas, for your comment. For a while I would have agreed with you, as that is what I was told as well. Unfortunately it repeats talking points that do not hold up upon closer inspection because of a few key points: first, because nearly every nation cooperated with Apartheid South Africa. To single out the Jewish State - especially given it's relative poverty in the Apartheid years - is biased. Why is it that Israeli arms are somehow more worth ANC ire than the relations the Apartheid regime benefitted from worldwide?
Second, about the PLO: it is true, the PLO and ANC had historic ties. Yet Mandela himself was not anti-Israel, and the PLO has spoken out quite a bit against the Hamas and its take over of Gaza. Why is it that the ANC did not side with the PLO against the Hamas in its takeover of Gaza and massacre of PLO members? Moreover, why is it that the ANC supported the open operation of Hamas members in South Africa as far back as the late 1990s, as they openly planned and prepared to take on the PLO?
I was to emphasize that Palestinian self-determination is not the issue under contention. I'm a firm believer in self-determination, and always have been. The question here is how the ANC went from its historic support for the PLO's national movement to becoming a champion of global islamist movements - and how the noble intentions of the anti-apartheid movement were weaponized against the Jewish State while ignoring the many other national movements and brutal wars across the continent.
The points hold. Only a few countries were assisting SA to break the arms embargo and Israel was helping to make the apartheid state a nuclear power. This is a fact don't negate it. To say nearly every nation cooperated with the apartheid state reflects your narrow worldview of the way the world is structured. The entire African continent did not support the apartheid government! not to mention the ex-soviet block countries, parts of Asia and South America, so that too is a sweeping statement to make me look like I am not looking at this accurately.
Mandela was a unique statesman focused on reconciliation above all else, the ANC as a liberation movement had many Jews who played important roles in the liberation struggle but don't confuse this with being pro-Zionism. I won't pretend to be an expert on Hamas or the PLO in SA we have our own problems in SA which is where we focus our attention. Don't forget the ANC was labelled by the world as a terrorist organisation and even Mandela had to get special dispensation to travel to the USA as he was still listed as a terrorist. So the assertion is why SA allow Hamas to have representation in SA I'm sure the answer is that they represent resistance to Israel's illegal occupation. Finally, if you want to go on about Hamas surely you need to focus on how Israel allowed Islamist groups to rise to weaken the PLO which resulted in a more militant Hamas! Which is far more impactful than a handful of people in SA!
Thank you, Nicolas - I want to make three things clear: first, I supported the anti-apartheid movement, as did most Jews no matter their country of origin. Second, I support Palestinian self-determination, even though I recognize that whatever entity develops will most probably be anti-liberal and authoritarian, and Jew free. Third, my intentions here are not to debunk the past or argue with you but rather to attempt and see the patterns behind the patterns that have led the ANC to abandon the Palestinian cause and join the Islamist global effort by backing Hamas.
Let's start there, because perhaps that will be more controversial: myriad Palestinians including the leadership of the PLO have repeatedly blamed Hamas for this war and lamented the Oct 7 attacks. South Africa is not coordinating with the Palestinian Authority. It is coordinating with Hamas. The ANC has favored Hamas and its position since the early 2000s. Hamas is an islamist, expansionist movement. Islamist is as racist, and definitely more imperialist, than Apartheid. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it is proudly proclaimed by the organization everywhere and always.
Why is it, then, that the ANC has such good ties with Hamas? Could it be that Hamas is backed by Iran and Iran has played a long game of influence building with the ANC? I believe there is more than enough evidence to make that claim and debunk the idea that the ANC just "cares about Palestinians," and it especially explains why the ANC does not care about Sudan, the DRC, Ethiopia's various campaigns internal and external, growing Boko Haram influence across West Africa, etc.
Which goes to your other point: the narrowness of my world. I am a big believer in the Continent, as I am in Asia, as the future of humanity. I'm surprised that a country as important as South Africa has so much to say as a mouthpiece of Hamas, and yet nothing to say about the various killings and genocides in its backyard or to its East.
Surely since you know the history of military manufacturing you realize that Israel, during the Apartheid regime, was a small and struggling entity. Did Israel make a deal with the devil to get access to fissile material? Yes. Which is why I wrote in my piece that Israel needs to undergo its own truth and reconciliation. Yet many, many other countries did the same. For the ANC to exclusively target Israel with its diplomatic dollars (or its foreign relations rand if you prefer) indicates a different current dragging us all along.
Not sure how you can say the ANC has abandoned the Palestinian cause they are fighting the same cause at the ICC they are not arguing for Hamas they are arguing for Palestinian rights! Its twisting things to say they are now pushing a pro Islamist agenda etc incl Iran. How on earth do you know who SA is coordinating with? Im sure if they trying to figure out the number of civilian casualties, houses, hospitals destroyed etc in Gaza then they would talk to Hamas if its on other matters then with the PLO (which has become a much weaker entity thanks to Israel strategy). Im not getting into an argument on the pros and cons of PLO vs Hamas that is a decision that should be decided by the people of Palestine in their own sovereign territory without blockades and restrictions from their neighbours.
As I said above the ANC has a strong connection with the freedom of Palestine and whoever is carrying that torch. We have peacekeepers in Eastern DRC which is an absolute nightmare to resolve, we negotiated the peace in Burundi, we were involved or try to be invloved in settling the disputes in Sudan without appearing to take sides so that we can still be seen as objective, the growing radical Islam influence across Africa can also be traced back to Western interference in Libya that completely destabilised the region and led to its rapid growth!
A lot of your discussions seem to stem in this Zionism victimisation narrative why does a country focus on this rather than that, one person and one country can't be all things to all people, we choose our areas of intervention ....
What Israel continues to do in Gaza isupposedly to destroy Hamas is totally unacceptable cannot be condoned or apologised for and needs to be highlighted and challenged on the world stage. The mere notion that Israel thinks it can destroy hamas is laughable, all it has done is birthed more radical fundametalists for generations to come, you cant wipe out resistance but you can wipe out a people.
What I would like to see is a proper report on how Oct 7 actually happened, what led to the massive security breaches. how many people were killed by Hamas and how many by the Hannibal effect. We need to understand this to be able to see who benefitted. Trying to deflect attention to Sa and perceived links to Iran as the axis of evil while Israel is perpetuating untold harms serves merely to deflect and justify the zionist perspective. Israel needs to stop the war, get rid of its radical governments and adopt a trajectory of peace which I suspect is as difficult due the the same radicalisation of the Israeli population
You conveniently completely fail to mention that Israel worked very closely with the apartheid government in developing arms, (including nuclear weapons) some which were used to suppress liberation movements in sub-Saharan Africa and against the black majority in South Africa. You also fail to mention the very close historical ties between the African National Congress and the Palestine Liberation Organisation instead focusing on Tehran where a pre-conference meeting took place whereas both the ANC and the PLO emerged as liberation movements fighting against oppressive regimes. But I think Israelis struggle to see that as it does fit the promised land narrative
Thank you, Nicholas, for your comment. For a while I would have agreed with you, as that is what I was told as well. Unfortunately it repeats talking points that do not hold up upon closer inspection because of a few key points: first, because nearly every nation cooperated with Apartheid South Africa. To single out the Jewish State - especially given it's relative poverty in the Apartheid years - is biased. Why is it that Israeli arms are somehow more worth ANC ire than the relations the Apartheid regime benefitted from worldwide?
Second, about the PLO: it is true, the PLO and ANC had historic ties. Yet Mandela himself was not anti-Israel, and the PLO has spoken out quite a bit against the Hamas and its take over of Gaza. Why is it that the ANC did not side with the PLO against the Hamas in its takeover of Gaza and massacre of PLO members? Moreover, why is it that the ANC supported the open operation of Hamas members in South Africa as far back as the late 1990s, as they openly planned and prepared to take on the PLO?
I was to emphasize that Palestinian self-determination is not the issue under contention. I'm a firm believer in self-determination, and always have been. The question here is how the ANC went from its historic support for the PLO's national movement to becoming a champion of global islamist movements - and how the noble intentions of the anti-apartheid movement were weaponized against the Jewish State while ignoring the many other national movements and brutal wars across the continent.
The points hold. Only a few countries were assisting SA to break the arms embargo and Israel was helping to make the apartheid state a nuclear power. This is a fact don't negate it. To say nearly every nation cooperated with the apartheid state reflects your narrow worldview of the way the world is structured. The entire African continent did not support the apartheid government! not to mention the ex-soviet block countries, parts of Asia and South America, so that too is a sweeping statement to make me look like I am not looking at this accurately.
Mandela was a unique statesman focused on reconciliation above all else, the ANC as a liberation movement had many Jews who played important roles in the liberation struggle but don't confuse this with being pro-Zionism. I won't pretend to be an expert on Hamas or the PLO in SA we have our own problems in SA which is where we focus our attention. Don't forget the ANC was labelled by the world as a terrorist organisation and even Mandela had to get special dispensation to travel to the USA as he was still listed as a terrorist. So the assertion is why SA allow Hamas to have representation in SA I'm sure the answer is that they represent resistance to Israel's illegal occupation. Finally, if you want to go on about Hamas surely you need to focus on how Israel allowed Islamist groups to rise to weaken the PLO which resulted in a more militant Hamas! Which is far more impactful than a handful of people in SA!
Thank you, Nicolas - I want to make three things clear: first, I supported the anti-apartheid movement, as did most Jews no matter their country of origin. Second, I support Palestinian self-determination, even though I recognize that whatever entity develops will most probably be anti-liberal and authoritarian, and Jew free. Third, my intentions here are not to debunk the past or argue with you but rather to attempt and see the patterns behind the patterns that have led the ANC to abandon the Palestinian cause and join the Islamist global effort by backing Hamas.
Let's start there, because perhaps that will be more controversial: myriad Palestinians including the leadership of the PLO have repeatedly blamed Hamas for this war and lamented the Oct 7 attacks. South Africa is not coordinating with the Palestinian Authority. It is coordinating with Hamas. The ANC has favored Hamas and its position since the early 2000s. Hamas is an islamist, expansionist movement. Islamist is as racist, and definitely more imperialist, than Apartheid. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it is proudly proclaimed by the organization everywhere and always.
Why is it, then, that the ANC has such good ties with Hamas? Could it be that Hamas is backed by Iran and Iran has played a long game of influence building with the ANC? I believe there is more than enough evidence to make that claim and debunk the idea that the ANC just "cares about Palestinians," and it especially explains why the ANC does not care about Sudan, the DRC, Ethiopia's various campaigns internal and external, growing Boko Haram influence across West Africa, etc.
Which goes to your other point: the narrowness of my world. I am a big believer in the Continent, as I am in Asia, as the future of humanity. I'm surprised that a country as important as South Africa has so much to say as a mouthpiece of Hamas, and yet nothing to say about the various killings and genocides in its backyard or to its East.
Surely since you know the history of military manufacturing you realize that Israel, during the Apartheid regime, was a small and struggling entity. Did Israel make a deal with the devil to get access to fissile material? Yes. Which is why I wrote in my piece that Israel needs to undergo its own truth and reconciliation. Yet many, many other countries did the same. For the ANC to exclusively target Israel with its diplomatic dollars (or its foreign relations rand if you prefer) indicates a different current dragging us all along.
Not sure how you can say the ANC has abandoned the Palestinian cause they are fighting the same cause at the ICC they are not arguing for Hamas they are arguing for Palestinian rights! Its twisting things to say they are now pushing a pro Islamist agenda etc incl Iran. How on earth do you know who SA is coordinating with? Im sure if they trying to figure out the number of civilian casualties, houses, hospitals destroyed etc in Gaza then they would talk to Hamas if its on other matters then with the PLO (which has become a much weaker entity thanks to Israel strategy). Im not getting into an argument on the pros and cons of PLO vs Hamas that is a decision that should be decided by the people of Palestine in their own sovereign territory without blockades and restrictions from their neighbours.
As I said above the ANC has a strong connection with the freedom of Palestine and whoever is carrying that torch. We have peacekeepers in Eastern DRC which is an absolute nightmare to resolve, we negotiated the peace in Burundi, we were involved or try to be invloved in settling the disputes in Sudan without appearing to take sides so that we can still be seen as objective, the growing radical Islam influence across Africa can also be traced back to Western interference in Libya that completely destabilised the region and led to its rapid growth!
A lot of your discussions seem to stem in this Zionism victimisation narrative why does a country focus on this rather than that, one person and one country can't be all things to all people, we choose our areas of intervention ....
What Israel continues to do in Gaza isupposedly to destroy Hamas is totally unacceptable cannot be condoned or apologised for and needs to be highlighted and challenged on the world stage. The mere notion that Israel thinks it can destroy hamas is laughable, all it has done is birthed more radical fundametalists for generations to come, you cant wipe out resistance but you can wipe out a people.
What I would like to see is a proper report on how Oct 7 actually happened, what led to the massive security breaches. how many people were killed by Hamas and how many by the Hannibal effect. We need to understand this to be able to see who benefitted. Trying to deflect attention to Sa and perceived links to Iran as the axis of evil while Israel is perpetuating untold harms serves merely to deflect and justify the zionist perspective. Israel needs to stop the war, get rid of its radical governments and adopt a trajectory of peace which I suspect is as difficult due the the same radicalisation of the Israeli population